Episode 121
Salaries, Slicing Pie, and Quarterly Profit Sharing (ft. Minivan Productions)
Kyler Beal was the minivan guy long before he ran a company. In college he and his friends turned a lifted minivan and a road-trip brand called Van Without a Plan into sixteen corporate sponsors in a single year, North Face and Otterbox among them. When he folded his freelance work into an LLC in 2019, the name was obvious: Minivan Productions. Seven years on, the company has moved from rural Forest, Virginia to a studio in San Diego, carries five people on salary plus long-term contractors, and splits its work roughly 70 percent commercial and 30 percent branded documentary and series content.
In this episode, Kyler joins Dario and Kyrill for one of the most numbers-forward conversations the show has recorded: the scoring system (airports included) that picked San Diego, what happened when his partner decided to fire himself from the day-to-day, the slicing pie equity model that keeps that partner a 24.6 percent owner, a four-bucket quarterly profit sharing plan that includes the whole team, why moving the owners onto salary lowered Minivan’s overall tax bill, why the studio avoided retainers until one very specific exception, and the grant money quietly funding documentary work.
Key Takeaways
- Pick your city like a business decision. Minivan scored cities on personal and professional fit, walkability, and airport quality down to the number of direct flights, then let surf and sunshine break the tie for San Diego.
- Travel is a margin line. Six to twelve travel days a month through small regional airports was eating project costs and time. From a big-airport base, even New York and Boston became faster to reach.
- Fire yourself every couple of years. Kyler’s partner built the systems, removed himself from each process one by one, and stepped back once the company could run without him.
- One partner can take several hires to replace. Motion design was a clean swap. Bookkeeping, tax prep, vendors, HR, and producing took about a year and a half of roles, vendors, and a first full-time producer to cover.
- Equity can follow risk, not workload. Under the slicing pie model, equity is earned by the unpaid value each founder put at risk. Minivan froze its pie about five years ago, so a partner who left operations still owns his share.
- Share profit in buckets, every quarter. Giving, retained earnings, employees, and ownership each take a slice, and a tiered formula keeps more in the company when a quarter is thin.
- Quarterly beats annual for morale. A reward that lands right after a hard season (like a 65-day documentary road shoot) means more than a cheque nine months later.
- Salary trades flexibility for clarity. Minivan moved its owners onto salary with its first hire and saw its effective tax rate fall, even with payroll as its largest monthly expense. Lapse makes the same switch in January.
- Lead with value before a retainer. Minivan works project to project by default. Its first retainer is a six-month in-house extension for a long-time client covering two parental leaves.
- There is more grant money than you think. One of Minivan’s upcoming doc series is grant funded, starting with a provisional grant for market research. Projects tied to a funder’s mission or corporate social responsibility have the best odds.
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Timestamps
Folding Freelance Into a Company
Minivan started the way many shops do: a freelancer whose work outgrew him. Kyler needed the protection of an LLC and a way to bring on subcontractors, and he wanted a brand bigger than his own name. He looked at the companies he admired and noticed they were telling their own stories, so he asked what Minivan’s story was. The answer was already parked in his driveway. It is a textbook version of the jump covered in the guide on how to start a video production company, and the point where a solo videographer becomes a production company.
Kyler’s background was live action: moving-camera DP work, some feature work, and managing drone operators. Clients kept asking for graphics and titles that did not look templated, and then for full motion design and animation. Rather than learn After Effects to that level, he brought in one of his best friends, a motion designer from Fox Sports, as a partner. The company ran out of Kyler’s bedroom, then the second bedroom of his apartment (no door, team over every day), which he calls their version of the garage build-out. A couple of larger clients carried them while they figured things out, and the team grew to three.
A Scoring System for Picking a City
By then most of Minivan’s clients were out west, in Seattle, San Francisco, Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, and Salt Lake City, and much of the work was outdoor gear, apparel, fly fishing, hunting, and action sports. The team was flying out of small regional airports and connecting through DC or Charlotte six to twelve days a month, and the extra legs and travel costs were eating into projects. So Kyler did something Kyrill says no guest before him has done: he built a scoring system for where to base the company, weighing personal and professional fit, how walkable each city was, airport quality, and the number of direct flights. Chicago, Seattle, and San Diego made the shortlist, and the chance to surf every day settled it.
It paid off on the road too. A five-hour direct flight from San Diego now gets the team to New York or Boston about as fast as rural Virginia ever did. Today Minivan has five people on salary, a couple of long-term contractors (sometimes on a six-month trial before a salaried role), and a 1,400 square foot studio used mostly for hosting clients, contractors, and events, plus an editing bay. Nearly all the shooting happens on location. For another founder who relocated on purpose, see Breaking into New Markets.
The Partner Who Fired Himself
Dario flagged this story from the pre-interview because the show rarely hears it. Kyler’s partner Chris joined on the motion design side, got deep into 3D, and was meticulous at the keyframe work Kyler admits makes him dizzy. A couple of years in, Chris realized he was good at motion design but did not love it, so he moved into producing, operations, and systems, becoming essentially head of production and the point person for HR, accounting, and every back-end process. About a year after that, he concluded the systems were built and he was working himself out of a job.
“Everyone should fire themselves every couple years and see if the company that they're working on can exist without them.”
Kyler Beal, Minivan Productions (on his partner's philosophy)So he did. The two worked from a checklist for about six months, removing Chris from each process one by one, so that by the time he stepped away there was almost nothing left to clean up. It is the planned, amicable version of a partner transition. The show heard the sudden, painful version from Blue Barn in Owner-Led and Human-Made in the Age of AI, and the groundwork both depend on is in the guide to business partnerships in video production.
Replacing One Person With Several
Kyrill asks how hard it was to fill the gap. Motion design was the cleanest part: Jenna, now Minivan’s lead motion designer, is a more natural designer than Chris, who Kyler calls a keyframe magician. The operations side was a Pandora’s box. Bookkeeping for sixty to a hundred transactions a month turned out to also mean tax prep, managing several vendors, and juggling bank accounts, and producing had to be split into account producer roles, contracted field producers, and finally Minivan’s first full-time producer, hired about six weeks before the recording. Most roles were filled through LinkedIn, and it took about a year and a half of hires, vendors, and a few swings and misses before every hole was plugged. The question Kyler keeps returning to is which roles must be in-house for cost or culture and which contractors can hold, the same tradeoff mapped in the guide on freelancers vs employees.
The handoff also clarified Kyler’s own job. By year two he had realized his value was not in the edit but in understanding creative well enough to manage it, recruit, rally people, and cast vision for clients. He has not been hands on in DaVinci Resolve, Premiere Pro, or After Effects in years. He still leads creative strategy and sits in on edits, but the company now has more talented people than him doing the craft, which he says means a better product for clients and more room for the creatives to just create. It is the shift every owner faces in the guide on how to scale a video production company.
“Leading a company that happens to be creative.”
Kyler Beal, Minivan ProductionsSlicing Pie: Equity That Follows Risk
Kyrill asks the unglamorous question: when Chris left, was there a buyout? Kyler invites everyone into the nitty gritty. Minivan uses slicing pie, a risk-based equity method built for bootstrapped companies. If your time is worth a hundred dollars an hour and you are paid nothing (or fifty), the gap is what you are risking, and it becomes your slices of the pie. Cash counts at a higher multiplier because it is the riskiest thing to put in, and equipment, ideas, and relationships can carry their own multipliers. Once nobody is risking anything (everyone earns a competitive salary and the company buys its own gear), the pie freezes. Minivan froze its pie about five years ago.
Because equity tracks risk rather than current workload, Chris still owns 24.6 percent of the company, remains a partner in the multi-member LLC (taxed as an S Corp), receives his K-1 each year, and gets his ownership share of distributions. Kyler, meanwhile, is paid a regular W-2 salary as an owner, with distributions on top. The two have discussed a buyout, and some team members have expressed interest in buying in, but nothing has happened yet. For how ownership stakes change hands, see the guide on buying or selling a video production company.
Four Buckets, Every Quarter
Minivan’s operating agreement keeps much of each year’s profit in the company, which pays the tax on it. On top of that, any profitable quarter triggers profit sharing for the whole team, split into four buckets. The first is giving: ten percent of profit, with each team member choosing the organization their portion supports. Then come company retained earnings, an employee bucket distributed to the team, and an ownership bucket. The split works on tiers, a little like tax brackets. When profit is thin, more is retained to cushion a bad month, quarter, or year. As profit grows, the top tiers flow increasingly to employees. Kyler says it took a lot of guess and check, and offered to send the one-pager that explains it.
Why quarterly? Annual is common and less risky for the company, but it can be a bummer. Minivan once shot a doc series with roughly 65 days on the road. Asking people to wait nine months, or a year until taxes close, to be rewarded for that season felt wrong. Quarterly lets them share the proceeds of a hard stretch, or of a stretch where their process was so efficient that it simply created more profit. Kyrill notes the model makes most sense with a committed team, while Lapse still runs on two owners and a bench of freelancers, and Dario plans to feed the transcript to Claude for pointers.
Moving the Owners Onto Salary
Kyler turns the question around, because Lapse is switching from dividends to salary in January. Dario’s reasons: a future mortgage application, contributions to the Canada Pension Plan, room to contribute to an RRSP (Kyler compares it to a 401(k) or Roth IRA), and disability insurance, which Lapse was refused because the owners pay themselves dividends rather than a salary. Dario modeled the salary numbers with Claude using the company’s own books, the exercise he described in From Free Promo Videos to Tech Launch Videos, and their accountant confirmed the switch should lower their total taxes.
Minivan made the move around 2021, when it hired its first employee. Kyler admits it was scary. Even with consistent, agreed distributions, salary meant guaranteed money going out, plus medical, dental, and vision benefits and retirement matching. With distributions, the owners could see a slow month coming and skip a payment. With payroll, everyone gets paid, so the question becomes where the money comes from. Payroll is still Minivan’s largest monthly expense, but salary brought clarity, easier forecasting, and a lower effective tax rate overall, even counting employer taxes. Rules differ by country and structure, so confirm the specifics with your accountant. Path8’s Pat Henderson framed the same leap as calculated risk in Empowering Your Team and Elevating Morale.
Why Minivan Avoids Retainers (Mostly)
Before recording, Kyler mentioned that Minivan turns retainers away, which surprised hosts who hear plenty of guests chase them. His concern is use-it-or-lose-it agreements with loose objectives. Either the agency struggles to hold boundaries and feels taken advantage of, or the client feels it is paying for nothing, or the client is buried in work just keeping the retainer fed. Early on, a couple of clients came to Minivan burned by retainers and asked for project-based work, which was all Minivan did anyway. It meant more scoping and paperwork, but healthier relationships.
“Lead with value before getting into long term agreements.”
Kyler Beal, Minivan ProductionsThen he admits the exception: about two months before the recording, Minivan signed its first retainer. A long-time client has two creative team members heading out on maternity and paternity leave, so for six months Minivan acts as their in-house extension rather than the client hiring temporary staff. Kyrill calls it a guideline, not a rule, and the hosts point out that every retainer success story on the show has been with an established client. In Kyler’s circles, agencies of record and even solo videographers often lead with six to twelve month agreements, which Dario and Kyrill tie to results-driven marketing work. Lapse’s version is pre-booking: clients who reserve quarterly webinars and annual events. More in the guide to retainers and recurring revenue.
Docs, Grants, and Funding Nobody Talks About
Kyler asks where Lapse is headed. Kyrill points to more corporate work in the finance, software and tech, and manufacturing spaces Lapse already serves. Dario wants more recurring events for the consistency, keeps the generalist approach he enjoys, and calls this year a cleanup year (with some big changes thanks to Claude). Minivan’s mix is about 70 percent commercial and 30 percent long-form branded documentary and series work, and it has never made original content without a client or backer behind it.
Two long-form projects start in the spring. One is an eight-episode content series for an organization, part documentary discovery and part scripted. The other is an eight-part documentary series about hope-filled media, funded through a grant program that first awarded a provisional grant for market research. The plan is six months on the festival circuit before it goes to streaming. Kyler says he is blown away by how much grant money exists for content of all kinds, and that the best odds come from matching a project to a funder’s mission or corporate social responsibility goals, the way Patagonia has funded films about rivers and sustainability. Dario adds a friend who won grant funding partway through a passion project, and Brigitte of Bee Video Productions, whose grant-funded series he recalls from TV Doc, RFPs, and AI. For the bigger tension, see passion projects vs paying the bills and building multiple revenue streams.
“There's definitely more out there than people think.”
Kyler Beal, Minivan ProductionsThe Bar, the Budgets, and Ideas From Other Industries
Kyler asks whether the hosts are usually impressed or underwhelmed by the work out there. His own count: for every great commercial, about twenty make him wonder who paid for it, including spots from big brands. That bar is oddly encouraging, because it shows how much mediocre work still gets bought. Dario sees the opposite in the show’s own guests, whose work pushes Lapse to raise its game, and both hosts note how often a client’s interference is what drags a piece down. Kyrill adds the flood of online gambling ads, many of them now AI generated, as a category of their own.
On choosing clients, Lapse’s filter is simple: good people with real budgets. Kyrill says the variety of industries keeps feeding ideas from one client to the next, the modern-generalist case he made in The ROI of Content, and it is the flip side of the guide on whether to niche your video production company. Kyler agrees and goes further: Minivan learns more about running a business from non-creative companies than from other agencies. His whole team is reading Unreasonable Hospitality, a book about restaurants, and getting more from it than from anything about firms like theirs. Dario connects it to a past guest who spent twenty years in restaurants before video, in B Corp, Saturated Markets, Niche, Real Stories.
Why a Minivan
Kyrill closes with the name. In college, Kyler and his friends wanted a West Coast spring break they could not afford, so they drove, and then found a way to make someone else pay for it. They built a brand called Van Without a Plan, with a blog, a vlog, stickers, and shirts, and landed sixteen corporate sponsors the first year, who sent gear and covered gas. They ran it back the next year too, around 2016 and 2017, four-by-fouring in a minivan with a six-inch lift. Kyler had already freelanced corporate video through high school and college and worked as a multimedia journalist in Guatemala, but the road trip was his first project with real traction.
Over time the name became a posture: curious, approachable, purpose driven, inventive, and roomy enough to bring every kind of client along for the ride.
“It's like not some hot sexy sports car. It's like a practical functional vehicle.”
Kyler Beal, Minivan ProductionsTry this this week
Run the fire-yourself test. List every back-end job you personally own this month, from bookkeeping to proposals to payroll. Next to each one, write who or what could take it over: a team member, a vendor, or a written process. Pick one and hand it off before the month ends.
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Kyler Beal?
The founder and director of Minivan Productions in San Diego. He came up as a freelance shooter and multimedia journalist, founded the company in 2019, and now leads client relationships, creative strategy, and team culture rather than editing.
What is Minivan Productions?
A San Diego video production company founded in 2019 in Virginia and later moved to Southern California. It makes brand anthems, commercial content, branded testimonies, social video, and branded documentary and series work, for clients including Mission Fed Credit Union, Thermos, Dunlop, and GetMyBoat. Site: minivanproductions.com.
How does profit sharing work at Minivan Productions?
Every profitable quarter is split into four buckets: giving (ten percent, with each team member choosing the cause), retained earnings, employees, and ownership. A tiered formula keeps more in the company when profit is low and shares more with employees as profit grows.
What is the slicing pie equity model?
A risk-based way to split ownership in a bootstrapped company. Founders earn slices for the unpaid value they put at risk, such as discounted time, cash, equipment, or relationships, until the pie is frozen once nobody is risking anything.
Does Minivan Productions offer retainers?
Rarely. It prefers project-based work so it can lead with value first. Its first retainer is a six-month agreement to act as an in-house extension for a long-time client while two of the client’s team members are on parental leave.
Why is the company called Minivan Productions?
Kyler was the minivan guy from age sixteen, and in college his sponsored road-trip brand, Van Without a Plan, became his first project with real traction. The minivan now stands for being curious, approachable, practical, and roomy enough for every client.
The Hosts
Dario Nouri and Kyrill Lazarov are the co-founders of Lapse Productions, a Toronto video production company, and the hosts of Creatives Grab Coffee, a weekly show about the business of video production.
About
Creatives Grab Coffee is a podcast about the business behind video production: sales, strategy, pricing, team building, and everything that happens off camera. New episodes every week on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
Lapse Productions is a Toronto-based video production company serving tech, finance, healthcare, and manufacturing clients with corporate, promotional, event, and testimonial video. New to commissioning video? Start with our guide to the types of corporate video.
Minivan Productions is a San Diego video production company founded in 2019 by Kyler Beal, who started it in Virginia before moving the team to Southern California. Led by Kyler as founder and director, the studio makes brand anthems, commercial content, branded testimonies, social video, and branded documentary and series work for clients including Mission Fed Credit Union, Thermos, Dunlop, and GetMyBoat. Learn more at minivanproductions.com.
Credits. Hosted by Dario Nouri and Kyrill Lazarov. Produced by Lapse Productions in Toronto. Recorded remotely on Riverside.
Full Transcript
Read the full episode transcript
This transcript was generated automatically from the recording and lightly edited for readability, so it may contain errors. The audio and video are the authoritative record. Spot a mistake? Email dario@creativesgrabcoffee.com. For chapter deep-links into the video, use the Timestamps section above.
Dario NouriCo-host, Creatives Grab Coffee00:00Hello and welcome to episode 121 of Creatives Grab Coffee. today we have a guest, another guest from San Diego. But again, before we get into it, please remember to like the show, subscribe, rate us on any podcast platform, because that always helps us out. but yeah, let's get into today's episode. We have Kyler from Minivan Productions based out of San Diego. So, Kyler, welcome to the show.
Kyler BealFounder and Director, Minivan Productions00:28Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Dario00:31And again, let's just start off with a history lesson. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kyler00:37Yeah. Minivan Productions. We started on the East Coast and at the time I had been freelancing and needed to kinda bring some some concrete nature to the work as well as like wanted to bring on subcontractors and the work was growing. So needed both the protection and starting to feel the need for like a larger brand. beyond myself. And I was looking around at other cool production companies or marketing agencies that I was aspiring to be similar to and thought I had to have some cool like vector marketing, something like really professional. but all my favorite companies were like Duct tape then beer films or rabbit rabbit hole or like they were telling their own stories. Like, hey if we're gonna be based in storytelling. what is our story? And like what is my background? And I had been like the minivan guy since I was sixteen and did a couple cross country road trips that had a lot of notoriety and some corporate sponsors. so when it tame came time to become something Minivan actually made a whole lot of sense. So started on the east coast and then moved out to San Diego 'cause so many of our clients were out west, so we brought our team with us and established HQ here in Southern California.
Dario01:47Why'd you make the switch from the east coast to the west coast? What was the reason behind that?
Kyler01:53It was definitely professional and personal. so many of our clients were out west, not necessarily San Diego, but Seattle, San Francisco, Denver, even like Dallas, Phoenix, Salt Lake, like a ton of stuff that was out this way. So we were losing a ton of time travelling to and from like rural Virginia and flying out of small regional airports and having to connect through D C and Charlotte and to come out this way often. We were doing a lot of like outdoor gear and apparel and fly fishing and hunting and like action sports, which are just obviously not as common on the East Coast. and then personally wanting to be in a a place that we could thrive. to my wife's from Bakersfield, which is like four hours north of where we are now. She's been a little bit close to her family. My family is in Michigan, so we were never gonna make both happy. and everyone's really excited as as you could probably understand, to move to San Diego. So it it all came together.
Dario02:49And then I guess well I guess you said you already had the the clients here, so that kinda helped you like establish the base, right? Because it's not like you just moved there and you have to start from scratch. but I guess like tell us a little bit about how you got to like where the company was before you moved over to the West Coast, like Yeah.
Kyrill LazarovCo-host, Creatives Grab Coffee03:10Like how you began it basically.
Dario03:13Kind of like skipped over all that stuff. That's that's the juicy stuff we want to know about. Yeah.
Kyler03:12Yeah. Yeah, it really was just
Kyrill03:15Yeah, yeah. He's like, had what had a company and moved to the to the West Coast. That that was it so easy.
Dario03:19Ha ha ha
Kyler03:20We yeah, I started it solo, and it really was just like I mentioned, kinda like folding freelance into an LLC. but then we started to to build some traction and brought on a partner on the motion side side of things 'cause my background was all in like live action, kinda D P moving camera stuff, had done some feature stuff, feature work with it. managing drone operators and stuff like that. but I knew nothing about motion design. And so as we started to grow and needing at at first it was like just graphics and titles that weren't so like templatized. and then quickly became like, hey, can you also do this for us? I was like, no, I have no idea how to do that. and I'm not about to learn after effects to that level. So we're gonna bring someone in. to was able to bring on one of my best friends who had been working at Fox Sports as a motion designer. And So we partnered up as he was kind of running the animation and and motion design side of things, and I was leading kind of our larger project scopes as well as like specifically the the live action things. and it was great. It was super fun. had a couple of like larger clients that sustained us as we kind of figured ourselves out. and grew. So we had three of us over there eventually on the team. started like in my bedroom and then moved into an apartment where we had like an extra bedroom. and our office became the second bedroom. which my wife who's an incredible supporter. I can't say she was super fond of, but every day we had people coming over to our place and taking over. but it was a blast. And it was like our version of the garage build out for sure, in that space. Like our our bedroom didn't even have a door on it. So it really was just like everybody was at our house, is how has how that functioned. yeah, and then we started to notice like the need for a larger market and kind of like we literally went through a process of like identifying which cities we could do well in from like a personal and professional standpoint and how close things are, what's walkable, built a whole scoring system, including like airport quality and how many direct flights we could get to and from places.
Dario05:35Interesting.
Kyler05:36and landed on I think we had like four cities that kind of met all the criteria, like Chicago, Seattle, San Diego, Maybe Grand Rapids mission was the fourth. And then I think we let our our personal desires push us down to Southern California where we could surf every day and enjoy the sunshine. Yeah.
Dario05:57Enjoy the sun, yeah, I was gonna say. What was the city
Kyrill06:00It's
Dario06:01that you guys came over from?
Kyler06:04It's forest, Virginia. It's like kinda middle
Dario06:06Yeah, okay.
Kyler06:06of nowhere in between kinda by Charlottesville.
Kyrill06:08Right.
Dario06:09Okay.
Kyrill06:10It it's funny though, 'cause I think you're one of the f not maybe the only one, but one of the few guests that basically looked at a lot of the cities in the US and was trying to figure out where they would want to base their business and work out of. Everyone just kinda starts working out of wherever they just happen to be, right? But you had like a whole scoring system, even with the airport, it's like where can we travel from that's convenient. So that's a that's a first for us.
Kyler06:38Yeah, we do a ton of like doc work. sometimes
Kyrill06:41Right.
Kyler06:41like true doc series and feature docs and sometimes just like doc style mini doc kind of branded content. And so honestly we were traveling even more when we were out east. but it was like really prevalent. Like we were traveling, I don't know, six to twelve days a month, and that adds up like really fast when you're grabbing an extra leg to go somewhere or just the cost of travel and whether or not we are booking that through client or having it like reimbursable still like was adding up and eating a bunch of project costs so and time. yeah. So I think things
Dario07:13You should have chosen in the middle then because you would have been in between east west
Kyrill07:17Yeah.
Dario07:18co
Kyler07:18It's true. It's true. we work out at New York and Boston still. but now there's direct flights 'cause we're at a big airport. So five hour direct flight is still better than like it probably would take us just as long to get there from rural Virginia to get to New York or Boston as it does from here in San Diego, which is kinda nuts, but yeah, became reality for us.
Dario07:42Interesting. what's what's like the team size like? Do you have any business partners?
Kyler07:48Yeah, so my partner, who's motion design has transitioned out of the business and is working full time for for Young Life out here in San Diego. he literally just left the office, so he's still around. but no longer in day-to-day operations. and then our team, there's five of us on salary, and then a couple long term contractors that are like either on a specific project or we have a desire to bring them on salary but need to like do six months of figuring out if they're that I fit or things like that. yeah. So the our whole team is based in Southern California now. both of our contractors are not here in San Diego, but yeah, so we got a studio here, like fourteen hundred square foot space that we mostly use to host. Like we for clients and contractors and we do a lot of events here. I think we've maybe shot one thing, like one tabletop pickup that we shot here. But for the most part we're on location so it's really just like an editing bay and meeting space.
Dario08:52so the I I remember when we were talking in the pre interview you mentioned yeah you had a business partner that came on after you started it, but now he's he's also looking to leave. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? 'Cause we we don't often hear that. That's that's kind
Kyrill09:04Yeah.
Dario09:04of rare.
Kyler09:06Yeah. Yeah, Chris. so he like I said, he was at Fox and it made a ton of sense for him to like I don't know if this is the right phrasing, but kind of spread his wings and do like a broader work. So he was really enjoying motion design and we were getting into some three D stuff that was really fascinating and fun for him. And he was super talented. He's like meticulous. And so the world of keyframing and a million layers like makes sense for him where I like can't look at that screen for too long and I get dizzy. yeah.
Dario09:33I'm the s I'm the same.
Kyrill09:34Yep, yep. Regular timelines can get dizzy even.
Kyler09:39Right. Yeah. so made a ton of sense and grew our business and some some huge ways. And then I don't know the exact timing, but a couple of years into that he like, Hey, I don't I don't actually know if I love motion design. Like I I enjoy it and I'm good at it, I recognize it as a skill set, but I wanna explore like what else there kinda is out there. And so he sorted continued the motion design and kinda leading motion designers on our team. But then also producing and kind of getting his hands in operations and system build-outs and kind of became like essentially a head of production, where he was managing most things on the back end from project management to producing, like field producing. and then probably like a year after that, he's like, Hey, it's great. I don't know that there's like a lot of need for me. Like we've built the systems that this company needs, and I'm kinda like working myself out of a job, and I'm I recognize that. And I don't really want to do more of like the creative fulfillment like motion design, like where my skill set is. so I think it's time that we like I th he pr he refers to it as like everyone should fire themselves every couple years and see if the company that they're working on can can exist without them and and would do well. and that's what he did. So probably now it's been like a year and a half since he did that and like walked through Hey, here are all the systems that I built. We had this whole checklist of things that he was working on and we wanted to finish prior to stepping away. Because there was a ton of things from including like HR. Like he was our point of contact really across every back end admin type thing he was running and managing our accounting. And so it took like six months probably for us to hand everything off to the right people. Some of that came back onto my plate, some of that came into like finding new vendors to help us in spaces. luckily it was like I guess not luckily, it was like he did a really good job making this procedural, but he had like spent a lot of time removing himself one by one from all these different processes. so by the time that he actually like officially stepped away, there was very little for him to have to clean up. so that should have been great.
Kyrill11:48it difficult was it difficult to find someone to replace or at least like to find the right people to kind of r replace that huge gap because that's like ta like a huge piece of the business that had a very specific skill set that that you guys had and to for I mean obviously like you mentioned like he was able to slowly integrate himself out of it but finding good motion graphics people that are that have that tick all the boxes you know they're not only just good at doing it but also work well under pressure, work well with clients, work well with with team members. It's not easy to find. So like what was your process of doing that?
Kyler12:27Yeah, The motion side has probably been the cleanest transition. it's hard to find really talented people that are also great people to work with for sure. but it was like the cleanest job title to everything else that he was handling and managing, you kinda like it's like Pandora's box. 'Cause you're like, cool, you like do our bookkeeping. We have, I don't know, sixty to a hundred transactions a month. Like, how do we hand that off? But then you get into and you're like, it's also like tax prep, and it's also figuring out how to manage three different vendors and have these different connections. And we have multiple bank accounts to have high interest savings accounts. And there's like way more to it. Where the motion design side is like, hey, we to find like a really capable one person that like fits this side of things. and so we we hired all of our roles through I think most of our roles we've hired through LinkedIn. and just been incredibly blessed with like such talented people applying for the roles, and then landing on on the people we have so a grand Jenna is our lead motion designer and has been like such a smooth transition from from Chris's skill set. And they're very different, but within that like skill set they had a ton of crossover. and in some ways she immediately had had ability that Chris didn't, which was cool to see. Like she's much more of a natural designer. where Chris is much more like he's a keyframe magician and like building out the processes to stay clean is like so to his world. And then think on the the rest of like the producing side and figuring out like as we grew what else we needed that he naturally would have filled or like plugged a hole for six months as we figured out like what the role was like. That one's been much harder. So we've had like account producer roles where they're like doing a little bit of account management that Chris was familiar with, as well as producing an actual project. We've had more like contracted field producer roles or things that are just for specific projects. and then we just like a month and a half ago, took on a full-time producer for the first time. And he's been crushing it. So Jaime came on. And now I think genuinely for the first time since Chris stepped away, we actually have all of the the holes plugged, so to speak. with people that are even more capable and actually interested in growing those skill sets, which I think was Chris's tricky part was like, Hey, I I might be good at this, or I think I am good at this. Like I don't really want to continue to develop this skill set. So it's hard for me to like stay focused and want this, which is super valid. I was like, you're you're twenty seven years old. Like you don't have to have your life in your career career trajectory figured out. Like go try some things. yeah, that's kind of a long-winded answer. But I think that it took us probably a year and a half to like figure out all the right people, take some swings and misses on vendors and figuring out like what can we really hand off to other people versus which things are like unique to the way that we operate and need to be in house positions. that's kind of our biggest question all the time. It's like as we grow which of these things are really necessary to bring in house, either for financial reasons or for like culture and preservation of like exactly how we want to do something. that contractors can be committed to, but typically like never really fully integrate in that way. so yeah.
Dario15:56He he's very wise for a twenty-seven year old, 'cause back then I was like, How do we get to the end of the month? Where's the work coming from? but
Kyrill16:04I would not have guessed that he was twenty seven.
Dario16:07yeah, like I I thought he was at least like late thirties, forties, cause like he's re like I was just thinking when you first told me, I was like, my god, that'd be brutal. But like I I like like hearing what you guys went through to kind of get to where you are right now, it's like it it almost helped you make the business way more well rounded and self sufficient in a way because like he left voluntarily, but let's say something happened. like the previous the company we had on Blue Barn had their their partner that unf you know, very sad passed away. And that kind of left like a very big gap. But at least you guys had like a method in place to transition to filling all these roles that one person was essentially doing, right? do you Are ha has that also changed how you see your role within the business?
Kyler17:02Yeah, I think I think that a lot of it was in motion. I think like a lot of people who s maybe start a creative company similar to how I did, there was like moving freelance into a company and a brand, get really surprised with like how little of the creative work they keep doing, or at least like how much more gets added on the admin side. but I think I had been maybe by year two, I guess we're in year seven now. I think by year two I was like, Hey, I think my my actual like gifting and my real value add actually has nothing to do with the creative. It's like being able to understand creative in order to manage and run it, recruit, rally people, cast vision for clients. and I think that really shifted in that year like two, three, four. to the point where now I'm I'm like I haven't been in Da Vinci Resolve or Premiere Pro or After Effects hands on in like l truly years. and I still like lead creative strategy and sit over people's shoulders and we edit together. But recognizing that like I don't need to cut a sequence together, like that's not where I actually am adding value. Someone's better than that better than me at that. and my real gifting is like managing and leading client relationships and understanding how to like build culture with team and so I think that just became more prominent as Chris stepped away. Because it was like tied together with the same timing that we were starting to grow and need more of that. so yeah, it definitely shifted it, but I don't know that it created the void. that I've stepped into as much as it was like, hey, for sure that's where we're gonna need more of my time is like leading a company that happens to be creative, essentially, as opposed to like being a creative that is w that is fulfilling the work we're doing. and that's like the coolest handoff ever, because now we have significantly more talented people than me fulfilling our work. So our clients are getting a better product. our creatives are having more fun because they don't have to do all the admin and financing and and figuring out like what it looks like to lead relationships and a company at the same time. They just get to work on work that they want to do and allows them to like have more brain space and margin to be creative in that space.
Kyrill19:17Nice. And one thing I'm curious about when when you say Chris left, did you guys dissolve your partnership? Did you buy him out? Like w what was that process like? 'Cause that's that's part of the the the unglamorous side of the business. So, you know, in terms of like what happens on the back end. Like did you guys or is he still
Dario19:36You and you don't you don't need you don't need to get into the nitty gritty details or like whatever
Kyrill19:39Yeah, not the nitty gritty, yeah.
Dario19:40we are comfortable talking about.
Kyrill19:42Yeah.
Kyler19:43Yeah, no, welcome to the nitty gritty if you guys here for it. we used a methodology for our equity sharing called slicing pie. and it's like fairly unique, but I think it's an awesome system when you're like bootstrapping a company. that is risk based equity. So like i I'll try and give a thirty thousand foot view. Let's say like your time is worth a hundred dollars an hour, but you're doing it for free. Or maybe you're doing it for fifty dollars an hour, like discounted. that whatever that delta is, like that gap, you're essentially risking. Like I'm what I'm doing is worth a hundred dollars an hour. I'm I'm making zero. I'm risking a hundred dollars an hour by being a part of this. that gets put like pooled into a pie. Like it becomes slices in a pie. That then you have a portion of like the full company's risk essentially. That's how you earn the equity. And you also could contribute capital and that gets at a at a multiplier, 'cause cash is like the the riskiest thing to To put into a business because it's you already used a skill to earn it, it's already post tax. Like that's act that's way more risky than your time as an example. But things like equipment, ideas, relationships, like that can all get different multipliers within the slicing pie methodology, but it's all based on risk. And then at some point you freeze the pie when no one is risking anything. So like in this case, if you're all getting paid something competitive market salary and are no longer contributing. financial capital and you don't need it like if you're buying equipment it's coming out of company accounts. Then you freeze the pie. So we froze our pie like five years ago, whenever we like no longer needed any of that financial support. And then that equity is like not based on how much work you do for the company. It's not based on like what's actively going on. It's just based on like when risk happens. So Chris is no longer paid by Minivan day to day. He doesn't he's not on salary with us anymore. but I am, but neither of us are risking anything. So our equity share is not changing. so he still is a an equity holder, he's a partner at the company still, even though he's not like in it day to day. So we didn't dissolve our partnership, still exists. we're an LLC, a multi-member LLC taxed as an S Corp, and he's still a part of that every year around that he gets his K one from the company. Yeah. So we we've we've talked about him being bought out, we've talked about s people from our team who are interested in in becoming partners that would like buy him out. hasn't happened yet and may not, but yeah, that's the that's where we're at with our current parts of so he he left dated apparations but still is a partner and equity holder because of the time he spent risking essentially back when we first formed.
Kyrill22:36Okay. So he's just not getting paid essentially. But like on paper he's still part of the business, but because he's not working in the business anymore, he's just not getting paid anything like that. And then you guys just file taxes as if, you know, still partners, right?
Kyler22:53Yeah, and he and he's getting paid distributions. like
Kyrill22:57okay.
Kyler22:57s 'cause he still owns twenty four point six percent of the company. so yeah, maybe a little bit unusual for creatives like in our space, but like I'm paid like a W two salary even as an owner of the company, but then distributions come like beyond that. as a part of profit sharing and things like that that we do with our whole team.
Dario23:25Okay. So so the distribu I I I don't know how that works. We're not at that stage yet. We're still paying each other dividends, but essentially like at the end of the year you guys decide how much leftover profit you guys divvy that up depending on whatever's allocated to each person. That's how you guys do it?
Kyler23:42Yeah, yeah. And we
Dario23:43okay.
Kyler23:44like because of how we wrote our operating agreement, we keep a lot of the of that funds like within the company. Like it stays in the company account. The company pays the taxes and it stays in there.
Dario23:52Right.
Kyler23:54and but we actually do quarterly profit sharing with our whole team. So any quarter that we are making profit, our employees are included in our profit sharing model. so like
Kyrill24:02interesting.
Kyler24:03Chris gets paid out from that as well when there's profit because he even though he's like a portion of it is for employees, the he is no longer an employee. And then a portion of that is for ownership. He still gets paid out his portion of that.
Dario24:16How did you guys figure out the amounts for the profit sharing?
Kyler24:22a lot of guess and check. so we have we have
Dario24:25Okay. 'Cause we're 'cause we're switching to salary from January, so I've it's just it's got me thinking now.
Kyrill24:33I'm curious also though, like because of the type of business that we're in, it's not always guaranteed. It's like wouldn't it be better to also have some savings set aside for like a runway, unless you guys already have that already in place, I'm guessing. But
Dario24:47I think they do probably like a small percentage, right, Kyrill, 'cause you're not gonna go through all the leftovers. Yeah.
Kyrill24:50Y I know, I know, that's that's what I'm asking. That's what I'm asking. It's like how they've gone about it.
Kyler24:56Yeah, we have we have four buckets in our our profit sharing model. The first one is tithing or giving. So our whole company is a part of like giving ten percent of our profit and they get to choose like their their portion of that. they kind of get I don't know what you'd call it, it's not a blank check. They get a fixed amount based on that percentage, but they get to choose the organization that they support. So that's one bucket. The second bucket is like company retained earnings. third bucket is employees, and that go is like the profit sharing that actually gets distributed to the team. And then ownership is the last bucket. and it's i this is gonna sound more complicated than it is, but we use like a similar to like a taxed structure where it's like, hey, if we make X amount, this is the percentage of what that breakdown looks like. And so if we if we make very little profit in a quarter, more of it gets retained by the company because we need to be able to like insulate for what often can be like losses in a month or a quarter or even a year. but if we make more profit, like it becomes more and more advantageous for the employees. we're retaining less and less of that like upper tier for the company's retained earnings and being able to distribute more of it that way out to employees. Does that make sense?
Dario26:14Yeah, yeah, I get it. That's interesting. I'm I'm gonna feed the transcript
Kyrill26:15I i a little.
Dario26:17from this podcast to Claude and and have it give me some pointers for what we should do 'cause no one's really brought that up, so yeah, yeah, that I'd like that.
Kyler26:23I'm happy to send it over too. We've got a we've got a one pager because it it became like something we think is really cool and we believe in and want to value like our team's active effort in the company. but also it becomes like moderately complicated. And so we've have built a couple of different versions of like a one pager that explains it probably more clearly than I should just read it is what I should have done.
Dario26:48Ha ha
Kyrill26:48Yeah. I was gonna say I'm I'm still a little a little confused, especially when you said like, yeah, we have a few buckets that we pull I'm like, there's more to this. Yeah.
Dario26:57No, it makes it makes sense. but no I do like the quarterly profit sharing thing. I didn't even think about that. I was thinking like at the end of the year, but quarterly sounds a lot more delicious than waiting 'til December.
Kyler27:10It's
Kyrill27:11Yeah, for one big check.
Kyler27:11it's riskier for the company, but I think it is like we went back and forth 'cause annual is pretty common. but it can be a bummer. Like let's say you work super hard for the next three months. or I mean now it's kinda close to the year. Let's say like January, February, March are like really heavy, everybody's working super hard. maybe you have late nights, maybe I've traveling a bunch. Like for some of our our like we shot a doc series where we were on the road for like sixty five days. We came back in between. But that season was like really heavy for everybody and everybody had to like give a ton of energy, which is cool. But then you don't wanna have to wait to be financially rewarded for that, like nine more months, or even if you like wait till you close taxes in April, that could be like a year that you're waiting. And
Dario27:54Yeah.
Kyler27:54it feels hard to then be like, Hey, this was for this thing we did a long time ago. Like, so quarterly for us lets us kinda gauge like, Hey, like we just did all this work and then we wanna like value that and give give everybody a portion of what we earned during that really hard season. or just successful. Like sometimes
Kyrill28:14It also makes
Kyler28:15it's tons of extra tons of effort and time and work. And sometimes it's like, hey, our our process was so efficient over the last three months, like we were so seamless that we were able to create more profit and like we all get to share that.
Kyrill28:28Sense with with a bigger team too, especially when you want to make sure that everyone in your team is feels valued. That is definitely a good way to do it. Like Dario and I are just the only two employees of our businesses, right? well technically we'll be salaried employees in January, we're just dividend employees right now,
Dario28:41Not yet, not yet, from January.
Kyler28:42For now.
Kyrill28:50but it's just us like we have hammer contractors that we work with all the time. And freelancers, so it's a little different in that sense. You know, they have their own commitments and everything, whereas you guys actually have committed people on your team that you want to make sure feel valued. and that definitely is a good way to do it. Whereas like, you know, as business owners you feel like you can sacrifice a little bit of those luxuries every now and then to make sure, you know, the business is also doing good. but yeah, it it really varies.
Dario29:21it's just a numbers calculation, right? So as long as you have all your numbers you can kind of figure out. Like for the the January switch, I had well I did all of our account like I mentioned this in the other episodes, but I I had Claude go through all of our accounting and create like exactly the type of document that my accountant would create. and from that I had it kind of like play test different salary numbers and let us know like which one would be like the safest for the business. So I'm I'm pretty sure like once you have all that all that data is just like a numbers thing where you could go like, Okay,
Kyrill29:55Yeah.
Dario29:55well if we do like quarterly prop profit sharing, right? Is that what it was called? Anu quarterly profit sharing, then how much realistically could we get from that type of thing, right? So
Kyler30:08Yeah, how did you guys land on maybe I'm prime, but how'd you guys land on salaries? Were you guys looking to have like benefits or what's the benefit to getting on salary?
Dario30:17yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a couple of things. main mainly I do want to get a mortgage in the future at some point, so they do check that stuff. but the other ben the other main thing was that you do get more benefits paying yourself a salary, like here, like you would be contributing to the Canadian pension plan. and there was some other stuff too, like you can contribute to your RRSP. which is I don't know what the equivalent of that is in the States. but basically I I I get I I guess.
Kyler30:48Like a Roth IRA or a four one K kind of thing.
Kyrill30:49Yeah, I think I think that, yeah.
Dario30:52Basically like you put the money in there and then when usually when you're retired you start to pull it out because it'll be taxed at a lower rate. I guess that's the rot? Is that what that one
Kyler31:00Mm-hmm.
Dario31:00is?
Kyler31:01Yeah, but four one K and Roth IRAs are like the two main styles of retirement accounts that that you can basically pay into if you're employed. There's other ways around it, but essentially that's the easiest way.
Kyrill31:11It yeah. And some tax incentives as well.
Dario31:14Yeah, those are the main ones. The the other big one too is that I do want us to get disability insurance as well. And we got rejected for it 'cause they're like, you guys pay yourselves in dividends. So technically it's not a salary, so we're not gonna offer it to you. And
Kyrill31:27yeah.
Dario31:28I was like, Okay, that's stupid, but it's like a consistent dividend. You can kinda see the numbers. They're like, no, it it's gotta be on salary. I'm like, All right, fine, whatever.
Kyrill31:34Yeah.
Kyler31:37Yeah. That's fun. it it was a big shift for us. We weren't salary initially. we brought on our f we became salary when we brought on our first employee, which was Twenty twenty one, I wanna say, like maybe year two ish of us operating. But prior to that we were just doing distributions. and then once we brought an employee, we're like, hey, this actually makes a lot of sense for all of us to be salary, like now that we're like going through the process of figuring out anyway. but it was a big shift for us. But it's been super clean. And it most people I talk to, at least stateside that are in creative and production agencies, don't aren't typically on salary, but it does bring like a lot of I don't know, clarity and ease of sustainability. Like easier to forecast, easier to understand like yeah, your your personal ability to use the value out of the company.
Kyrill32:34Yeah, especially when you have more people
Dario32:34Yeah, yeah.
Kyrill32:35too. Yeah.
Dario32:37Yeah, the d the only thing I I'm curious about is that I I haven't looked a hundred percent into it, but it was saying that once you start it you gotta you can't like s like let's say you can't do six months of the year salary and then switch the dividend. Like there's some weird rules, like it's considered like a promise to pay a certain amount. So I don't know how that part works. I'll figure that out later on, but yeah, did you were you nervous when you switched over?
Kyler33:05Yeah, it's the first time we had like guaranteed money going out. Like even though we had gotten to a point where like probably similar to you guys, like we had consistent consistent agreed upon distributions. Like we knew what we were gonna get. And I I don't even think that we I think we didn't have to change it for a year or something. Like we were pretty sustainable in knowing what was coming. but salaries do I mean it adds costs for at least for us 'cause we're adding benefits into that, like medical, dental, vision. We're like matching some of our teams for our retirement. so all of a sudden you're like guaranteeing this money and missing like a distribution when it's just you guys and when it was just us, like relatively no big deal, depending on what's going on in your personal life that month or that every bi weekly or however you pay yourselves. and you can kind of see it coming. At least we were able to, which was nice. So be like, Hey, July, like a month from now, don't plan on getting a distribution 'cause we're like we're not making any money. Where now we don't have that. Now it's like no everyone's getting paid. has has to happen. So like where's the money coming from?
Dario34:13Yeah, yeah.
Kyler34:13so that was that was freaky to like solidify a really big expense. Like payroll is still our easily our largest expense every month. So that's kinda gnarly to have that like locked in indefinitely.
Dario34:27Yeah. I forgot another benefit was
Kyrill34:27Well well it makes sense.
Dario34:30another benefit was to and our accountant confirmed is that our taxes would go down too. Like the taxes that the a the the business pays would would would go down. Which I was surprised, but apparently that was that was a thing.
Kyrill34:41Well, there it just goes on to us then in that sense. On the business side there's less taxes, but then it comes on to us a little bit, right?
Dario34:47No, when you get the salary, the tax is already removed. That's how I understood it.
Kyrill34:55but yeah, but it's being lumped in with it that you're paying it.
Dario34:55The business pays the the business pays the the taxes. No no but it said that we like compared to the taxes we're paying now, paying each other dividends, like once we switch the salary, the total amount of taxes we pay will actually go down.
Kyrill35:11you meant the personal 'cause you said the business taxes go down.
Dario35:14No, on the p on the personal no no the personal is still separate. Personal technically what we get is already the tax is already removed.
Kyrill35:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dario35:22Like remember when we were at the bank and you were getting your money? Like the tax was already removed. The bank was
Kyrill35:28Yeah, yeah, I I remember.
Dario35:29the bank was paying paying it directly for you.
Kyrill35:32Yeah, I know, I was just saying that I thought you were referring to the the business pays less taxes in general afterwards.
Dario35:38No, it it said I I mean, Claude told me and then also I checked with the accountant. It said it looks like we'll be paying less taxes than with the with the dividends. So I don't know. Seems like a good switch and we've
Kyrill35:50Sounds good to me.
Kyler35:50But that's true for us.
Dario35:51got the we got the money to to make it happen. So what I liked is that technically, yeah.
Kyrill35:55'Cause we're expenses now. We're expenses that at that point. That's
Kyler35:55That's awesome.
Kyrill35:58why, yeah. We're no longer making money. We're for the expenses in this sense.
Dario36:03Ha ha ha
Kyrill36:06In the eyes of the government.
Kyler36:07our effective tax rate went down for sure. So like dep I I don't know if it's
Kyrill36:11Okay.
Kyler36:11the same for you guys or but we d we do pay less in overall taxes, including like we pay employee tax like yeah but even counting all of that, like we pay less in overall taxes than we did prior to salary. So maybe
Dario36:32Mm-hmm.
Kyler36:32it's the same for you guys. I don't nothing about Canadian tax law but
Dario36:36Same.
Kyler36:36Yeah.
Dario36:41And apparently neither does the
Kyler36:42but
Dario36:42C R A.
Kyrill36:44Yeah.
Dario36:45It's a little joke for the Canadians listening in.
Kyler36:49Yeah, yeah, that one went right over me.
Dario36:51Yeah, yeah, no, 'cause there there was this recent report where CRA is the equivalent of IRS and there was a report
Kyler36:57Okay.
Dario36:57that said eight eighty five percent of the time they give out bad information. So the tax department of Canada is only
Kyler37:05That's that's too high.
Dario37:06the tax department of Canada is only right fifteen percent of the time. So you could call them ten times and only one and a half two and one and a half times you get the right information.
Kyler37:17I hate that. That's
Dario37:18Yeah.
Kyler37:21that doesn't sound fun. Yeah. What's
Dario37:24let's talk a sorry, go ahead.
Kyler37:26Go for it. No hate me.
Dario37:28No, I was g I was gonna 'cause before we start recording you're talking about how you w we were talking a little bit about retainers actually. We should bring that up because I thought that was a fun conversation. How you said you actually turn them away. and a lot of people have had trouble even just getting offered retainers. So tell us what the Yeah, which
Kyrill37:47They dream of them.
Dario37:50tell us your your method.
Kyler37:50Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I don't wanna make it all s I wanna make it all sound like sunshine and rainbows, but the concept of retainers we've been really hesitant on. and the main reason well, two reasons. One, for us we like find it really hard to find like win win value in retainers, especially like use it or lose it style retainers where you're like, Cool, we'll pay you five grand a month, we'll pay you ten grand a month, pay a hundred grand a month, like whatever. And like again, it doesn't nothing rolls over and it's like it is loosely tied to some objectives, but you don't really know what the work's gonna be every month. Maybe you do for the first three months or something, otherwise they probably wouldn't be bringing you on. but then things start to get like loose, and in in my experience, observing this can get messy. Like one way w the agency feels like they're getting taken advantage of because they are having a hard time establishing boundaries, or the client feels like they're getting taken advantage of because they're like, we're paying all this money and we don't we either we don't have any work for them to do. But we're locked in this agreement, or they're like, man, it's a lot of work to make sure we're up to date and like giving them enough work to fulfill their their retainer hours or however you structure your thing. so I think we saw it as a really hard thing to prove our own value. and then on the other side, we had a couple clients come to us early on that were had been burned by retainers, and so they were like, exhausted by the idea and they were like, Can we please just do something project based? And we're like, Yeah, that's the only way we operate. Like let's do it. So like we saw a lot of value in not leading, like being able to prove value, lead with value before getting into long term agreements. that our clients really appreciated. So it was like a little bit of us wanting to say, Hey, like we'll we'll continue to prove the value. We're also not getting locked into a long term agreement with a client we don't love working with. Like let's flesh this out a little bit. So yeah, we've kinda we've kind of found that line to be both helpful for us and helpful for our clients, even though it comes with more I don't know, paperwork or like scoping out more projects as opposed to like, hey, just run this through retainer. so I I don't have like a definitive way that it's saved us, but it does feel like we have really healthy relationship with our clients, and I see a lot of unhealthy relationships with clients locked into it, retainers. So yeah. What do you guys do retainers or what's your
Kyrill40:13A a lot.
Kyler40:14experience at them?
Kyrill40:16No, like we we mostly we mostly do project based as well. And like yeah, we have some clients that essentially pre-book us every year for like certain projects that they know they're gonna have, like quarterly webinars or
Dario40:29Webinars.
Kyrill40:29or usually the biggest one is usually events, like big events and conferences that happen for our clients throughout the year. So those are the the pre-bookings that we get. Usually when you have a policy that's very specific like that, you know, it usually comes from experience, right? So was there any particular experiences you had with past clients where you did go into a retainer that just made you realize this was not the right move? or or d or was it something you guys already decided without needing to do that?
Kyler41:01I think if I remember correctly, we n we never had one that went poorly. we never we just never had one. We actually as I'm saying this, we just signed a retainer like two months ago, for the first time. I think I think for the first time. and it's with a client.
Kyrill41:14wow. So it's not a policy. So it's not a policy then.
Kyler41:20It's a it's it's not a policy, it's concept. and it's with a client right.
Kyrill41:24It's more of a guideline than rules.
Dario41:27Feeling.
Kyler41:29It's with a client we've been working with for years and they kinda have like ex unique circumstances where they have like two of their team members on the creative fulfillment side that we usually work with, are headed out on maternity and paternity leave respectively for the next six months. And so we sign an agreement for six months to basically like fill those two roles so they don't have to like hire someone new into the space. Like it helps them a lot for us to be on retainer 'cause they can just treat us as an in house extension. and I mean it does obviously like a retainer is really helpful for like understanding your recurring revenue for us too. I'm very hesitant, can't lie, of like what this means. 'Cause I think I I think it's gonna go really well for them. Like I think they're gonna really enjoy having us on our like on their team. and then come January we'll have to like decide whether or not we wanna re up if they even like their team members will be back, but my my assumption is that they're gonna love the experience and that they are gonna wanna have like continue that agre agreement. So we'll see. This is kind of the guinea pig.
Kyrill42:31Difference there is that it's it's it's because it's with a client that you've already worked with, that you've already have a relationship with. So in those types of situations, it it makes yes. Exactly.
Dario42:39Very specific circumstance where they're going away for maternity leave and then coming back.
Kyrill42:45Yeah. It it it that makes the most sense. Like the biggest risk is, like you said, like if you're bringing in someone you've never worked with before and trying to lock down a six month to a year contract or something like that. Yeah, when you think about it, it's like Like imagine like it's like is if you're going to find someone's like, I'm gonna marry you for the next year and then we're gonna see if if this works or not. You know, it doesn't exactly
Kyler43:05Yeah, yeah.
Dario43:05I I will say the other the other guests we've we've had on that do have retainers that have worked out well is it's always been with clients that they've already been established with, right? So I've I've never heard of anyone
Kyrill43:17Yeah. Exactly.
Dario43:20saying retainer just with like, you know, random new client, right?
Kyrill43:26But that's the fantasy, Dario. The th the fantasy is to get the the the new
Dario43:28Mm.
Kyrill43:30clients, you know, and let's next month let's sign three clients and lock them in for the next year, you know. That is the dream.
Dario43:36I gotta say, that's a very nice if whoever's thinking that is being very naive, because like I mean, every time
Kyrill43:40Right?
Dario43:42we sign on a client, I'm always like, let's see how this project goes. If I hate them, I never wanna work with them again, right? I can't imagine locking yourself in for like three
Kyrill43:48I wanna start small.
Dario43:50to six months with someone that is gonna be a nightmare from day one, right?
Kyler43:54feel like maybe it's just cause we operate in different circles, but I think that is fairly normal. Like a lot of the agencies, and especially agencies of record, are signing like six to twelve month agreements. i yeah, at least that's my experience. I think it it depends on like the scope, but
Dario44:10Are they like ad agencies or are they like like video production companies?
Kyler44:15Even creative, I'd say like more video agencies than production houses or production companies, which is probably like semantics of what they call themselves. But I think agencies typically are a little more results oriented or have like some back end ability to like showcase performance. But some of are just like we have a bunch of word coming I I know one in Atlanta actually. that has been working this out and we've been talking through like should they do in a retain or should they try and like outline every deliverable they're gonna do for a year like because their client wants this level of work. and I yeah I don't think it's super unusual. Sometimes it's for like a low amount, like three grand a month because they know that they want to make three social videos and two cut downs or whatever. but I don't I I do think that a lot of agencies are leading with a retainer offer, if that makes sense.
Dario45:08I mean, it makes sense because but I I I see it making sense only if you're doing like marketing or ad agency stuff, 'cause you gotta show the results, right? How are you gonna show results per one asset deliverable? You need to like have like the space to go like, see, we tried it out for three months and these are the results, like month to month. But it makes sense in that circumstance.
Kyler45:28That's how I feel.
Dario45:30Yeah.
Kyrill45:30And more deliverables, not just video, right? Like photo, graphic design, web,
Dario45:33They're doing photo, they're doing campaigns.
Kyrill45:35like yeah.
Kyler45:37Yeah, yeah, some. I I really think that maybe it's a Southern California thing, maybe I don't know, maybe it's a West Coast thing. but they're definitely like videographers, solo videographers on retainer agreements. either the client thinks that they're getting like a higher quality character as opposed to hiring someone in house, or they feel like even though it's a retainer and it's relatively indefinite Like we can have we can stop this in six months where we don't wanna have to fire someone because we aren't making like the financial return we thought we were or something like that. but anyway.
Kyrill46:18I think it's also industry based in the type of work you do. If you're dealing with a lot of e-commerce or product related or like social content that needs to promote like something on a monthly basis, then the retainer model will will work. But if you're like in corporate, for example, that's not usually a space where you need to go into that kind of that kind of model. At least that's what I think for now. Like depending on the type of work you do. I think it it is very industry and content type based.
Kyler46:50Yeah. Yeah, I know you guys have have done a variety of work and are finding your niche here now. What do you think is next for for you all? Like what type of work is really exciting for you all?
Kyrill47:03I I would
Dario47:03Mm.
Kyrill47:04say to keep growing and finding more clients of the the corporate work that we do. Like we work in a lot of like finance, software and tech spaces. so th that's what a lot of our client work is based on. And also like a variety of like some event and manufacturing type clients. So it is nice to see if we can find more work like that and you know, continue to expand. That's kind of where we're right now pushing. but it's a slow burn.
Dario47:32I wanna do more events. More of more events for me would be great because again, the consistency, knowing that
Kyrill47:37The guarantee, yeah.
Dario47:39every year they're gonna need that again. And then from there maybe branching out. But I do like the generalist approach that we have. 'cause we get to experience a lot of different things. we haven't really niche down into anything, to be honest with you. Like it's still we're still very like we'll say yes to anyone as long as, you know, the budget is good and client is nice. So yeah. Yeah. No, we haven't I haven't I haven't
Kyrill48:01What helps us try?
Dario48:02I haven't thought too deeply about like which which direction to go in. I think this year's just been a a process of like cleaning up everything that we have. So maybe towards the end of the year we can start planning out different things.
Kyrill48:15Yeah. We typically do slow
Kyler48:16Yeah.
Kyrill48:17slow changes. We don't do it's not like next month, all right, we're completely changing our business models.
Dario48:24Well, late lately we have been doing pretty big changes. All thanks to all thanks to Mr.
Kyler48:26Ha ha ha.
Kyrill48:27On the back end of things maybe, but
Dario48:30Claude.
Kyler48:33Just letting
Kyrill48:33But what about you, Kyler?
Kyler48:34co work go to go to work.
Dario48:36Yeah.
Kyler48:37we do like seventy percent of our work in like commercial spaces and set thirty percent of it in like doc, branded docs or longer form like series style content. yeah. We
Dario48:53Like is it like doc dock? Like it's just like you're gonna sell it to a s like a like a what do you call it? A I was gonna say station. Not any you people don't sell to stations anymore. Like do you were
Kyrill49:03Studio.
Dario49:04you gonna sell it to to streaming streaming? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Kyler49:04Like a platform or a distribution channel or Yeah. Yeah, we we've never done something that wasn't already funded. Like we've never done original content that didn't have a client or a backer behind it. but we've done three like long form multi year projects and we're starting two in the spring. One is like a an eight part doc series that's truly like documentary in the sense that it's like discovery. It doesn't necessarily have an existing angle, but it's all around like hope-filled media and so finding characters that are like able to show that and then that'll go to streaming. and then the other one is more of like a content series for an organization that has a need for like an eight episode content series. So there's like aspects of it that are docky or would be like on discovery trying to find like the right characters or the experiences to to put our characters into. and then there's part of it that'll like totally scripted where they like are trying to communicate a specific aspect of a topic. so yeah, I'd say like true Docky.
Dario50:11You guys already got funded? You guys already got so y and you guys got funding before you started it. Is that what you're saying? No, he's saying they're
Kyrill50:17They're branded docs, Dario, he was saying. So like they're
Kyler50:18Correct, yeah.
Dario50:20the no, he was saying some of them aren't. The new ones aren't.
Kyler50:23Yeah, one of them is through
Kyrill50:23some of them aren't. Okay.
Kyler50:26one of is the one that's a content series is like for a client, like they're paying us to create long form content. And then the doc
Dario50:33okay, okay.
Kyler50:33piece is funded by a grant. so there's an organization that funds like you are submitting applications that are it can be like pretty extensive and then going through like we got a provisional grant to help us get like fund market research to like flesh threshold the idea. So in that sense I guess we like are pitching it in it and winning the work, but we didn't necessarily like go and shoot it and then try and sell it. If that like that's I've heard that and seen people do that where they like go and shoot a really cool doc and then they go try and sell it to some platform or streamer or whatever. In this case it's pre funded but it will go to streaming. but a little bit different model. We'll do like a festival circuit with it for six months. And then it'll be like either Netflix or Hulu will pick it up at that point.
Dario51:25Yeah, a friend of mine was just telling me about this, this weekend. He's he did the same thing. But he he told me he, he was already halfway through it or nearly done it, and then he was able to get the grant for it. And Yeah, it's pretty interesting. He was telling me
Kyler51:40I sound stressful.
Dario51:41to Yeah, I th I think it started as like a passion project for him, but he was able to
Kyrill51:43Yeah.
Dario51:45get the the funding after the fact, which actually helped 'cause he was able to showcase a lot of it and that I think helped Expedited. But yeah, he was telling me, he's like, yeah, everyone should go do it. 'Cause it's like the way he was telling me about it, it's like it's better if more people do it because then the grants will get higher. So we'll see how it goes.
Kyrill52:04And more of them come.
Kyler52:05Th there definitely is more funding than people think, like in the space. I think everyone's like you should have to find the right avenue. Like Yeah, finding like a random person or a random organization to fund your passion project is gonna be super hard. But if you're like, hey, this thing's about sustainable farming, then like there are tons of organizations that are looking for ways to bring awareness to that space. And some of them are you know, non profits that that might have limited budgets but important budgets. Some of them are like large companies like Patagonia is funding films around sustainability in the US, specifically around like rivers and like getting in touch with them and they like often will fund that kind of thing. it can be like a battle to like get through all the different doors you need to, but there's cer there like really is funding for like passion projects if they are especially if they're tied to like corporate social responsibility CSR components. There's definitely more out there than people think, but it's definitely an arduous, like long process to get in touch with the right people.
Kyrill53:11Yeah. And
Dario53:12Yeah, th there's actually a previous guest, Brigitte from Bee Video said she got funding to do her I forget what those things are called, Kyrill, where they have like plants on the walls. She did like a whole doc series on it. It was pretty interesting. Like green spaces and office buildings.
Kyrill53:27I
Kyler53:28Terrarium?
Kyrill53:29IS, yes. Greens green spaces. No, not ter terrariums,
Dario53:33No, like you know like office buildings now have like a wall of like plants.
Kyler53:37yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dario53:38She did like a whole series on it and like funding through the grant system
Kyler53:41Sounds cool.
Dario53:42and everything. Yeah, yeah. So I I was looking it up the other day. I've haven't done a deep dive onto it, but it's cool to check out. People listening
Kyler53:53Yeah. Do you guys kind of
Dario53:55would be cool idea to see what people create.
Kyler54:00kind of a a flip, but where do you guys feel you fit in like the creative business space? Like do you guys love the creative and you want to work in execution? Do you love like building something and it happens to be creative? Like you love to run a business, both like what's your all's backgrounds as far as what you were what got you here? And then also like what part of the business do you want to run five years from now?
Dario54:27I love I'll go first. I love the business side of it. with the creative side, I like it, but I don't like to be in the in the depths of it, you know, like in the weeds,
Kyrill54:37In the weeds.
Dario54:39like I don't I don't like being in the dungeon editing for hours. I I like here I'll take care of that. I can't I can't do that. I'll just like break down and give up.
Kyler54:48You can tell by these setups. Kyrill's definitely in a a a little a little editing editing dungeon. It's nicer but it's also I can tell it's dark.
Dario54:51Yeah.
Kyrill54:52Are you saying mine is nicer?
Dario54:55No, he's saying you're in the dungeon.
Kyrill55:00Yeah.
Dario55:01Yeah, no, no. I love I love like like I'll I'll tell Kyrill like hey, I think like this is what we should do and then I I let him I let him be. I let him go free and and come back with the results the creative results.
Kyrill55:15I mean I'll have my input, obviously. I'd be like, I don't know, like, maybe we should do it like this instead. Like there's a lot of collaboration between Dar and I. That's always been our relationship in the business. And we have like the different it it took a little bit of time for us to to kind of like figure out what each other's strengths and weaknesses are to kind of like help tackle on certain roles. But yeah, like as Dario mentioned, he handles a lot of like the the nitty gritty business aspects of of the businesses and I handle most of the creative. Like obviously we overlap a lot, you know, to help help each other, you know, depending on what's happening and things like that. But but yeah, and and like one thing I would also like to see is like what other kind of creative avenues we could explore down the road, like branded docks and stuff like that. But it's a very different world from like where our businesses are right now. But definitely something to explore. Especially if there are grants out there that can help that can help kind of guide things forward a little bit. That would that would be great.
Kyler56:18Yeah, we definitely just transparently have had way more success with clients directly, like finding like businesses that want to produce something. the grant
Kyrill56:27Of course.
Kyler56:28space is newer to us, but it's sort it's like for us is like ever growing. We just like didn't know so much of this stuff existed. and I'm kind of blown away with like literal billions of dollars that are being put into grants around content creation in in of all kinds. Some of that's video, some of that's photojournalism, like whatever, but there's so much more money out there in that space than I ever would have thought.
Dario56:55Yeah, the the my buddy when he was explaining it to me and he was telling me also like they don't care about the final product, they just want to see that it's done by
Kyler57:02Right.
Dario57:03the end and I was like, Are you sure? He's like, Yeah, and I was like, This sounds ripe for being taken advantage of. Not that I would, but I'm like,
Kyler57:09Yeah.
Dario57:10how do they not like wouldn't you wanna know what the quality is and everything? there's actually a
Kyrill57:15They just want to see a video, not say like it got done. Was it good? Maybe.
Dario57:19He's he told me that they they just want to see like the paperwork that it was done. So not even that it
Kyrill57:23That's what I mean. Yeah.
Dario57:24was like done, done, like the final product. They don't care about that.
Kyrill57:28Ha ha ha.
Dario57:28I was like, that's so strange. Like, why wouldn't they want to know? but you know that that reminds me of this guy I was freelancing for like pre-pandemic. Kept talking about how he's a movie producer, movie producer, this, that. All this stuff, but he had a c anyways, we were he had a 'cause he still had like corporate clients, so I was helping him out on those shoots and then one day like me and the other guys on on the crew were like looking him up and we're like, man, there's gu there's like nothing online about the movies he's talking about he made. And thinking back to it, like after I spoke with the my buddy, I'm like, you know, that guy
Kyrill58:05Yeah.
Dario58:06was probably just taking the grant money, making something, I guess, but like not like that's it. Just done. Here's the f like here's the final receipts. Thank you. And then I think that's what he was doing. He was just hustling like the grant system. Cause I didn't see
Kyrill58:21But why was he broadcasting that he's a movie producer that's made all these movies? Like it it sounded like he's proud of them from what you're explaining.
Dario58:28Yeah, and I'm like so I'm like, let me go check him out, you know, let me see these movies, right? not even
Kyler58:32Yeah.
Dario58:32like a trailer, like nothing. I'm like, what the hell? And then thinking back on it now, after Think told me that they don't even check, I'm like, this guy was just hustling the system. Like this guy's mak he must be making a career out of it, 'cause like there's nothing online. Where where are these films? He's
Kyler58:46And he was higher than you.
Dario58:48and he was hiring me. But that was through the corporate side. So the corporate client is paying
Kyler58:49Okay. I
Kyrill58:49Ha ha
Dario58:51him.
Kyler58:52think you also committed fraud with him, is what I'm hearing.
Dario58:55No no, that was for the corporate side. So and
Kyler58:56I was I was I' I'm kidding.
Dario58:59That's on him. Hey. I was just the labor that day. I was just holding a camera.
Kyrill59:02He was just the guy holding a camera on the back then.
Kyler59:02Yeah.
Dario59:07Literally.
Kyler59:07Do you all find that when you're interacting with new creatives, whether you're like on set together or like you made the coffee shop or whatever, do you find that you're consistently underwhelmed or impressed with the w the quality of work that's out there in the world?
Dario59:22Like with freelancers?
Kyler59:24Yeah, like you d like that that's an example of like,
Kyrill59:25I think it means in general.
Kyler59:26y you thought he probably was pretty good or whatever, and then you find out at a minimum it's like, this n this didn't really go anywhere. None of the work he did was was super impressive if he did the work. but I I find myself like just consistently finding mediocre work out in the world. And it's like people are doing it, people are getting hired for it, which I think excites me 'cause it like you understand where the bar is at and that people are paying for this content and it's producing value. Otherwise they wouldn't keep paying for it. But do you guys find yourself like consistently impressed when you're finding freelancers or other production companies or do you feel like, we're actually do we're actually better than we think we are because we're we can do the same things that they're doing.
Dario1:00:13you know what?
Kyrill1:00:13depends.
Dario1:00:14I I I'm trying to think of where I see a lot of the stuff, and I usually see it on the Creatives Grab Coffee Instagram, because I follow everyone there. So I I do get impressed because I see what our guests are producing, and I wouldn't have brought them on if they weren't pumping out good stuff. I actually watch and I'm like, damn, we gotta really like get our get our shit together a little bit, you know, because like everyone's like doing this and doing
Kyrill1:00:36We seek the good people. Yeah.
Dario1:00:38that. I haven't but I haven't done like a deep like market analysis on like I don't know, like Toronto scene or anything like that. I mean there's always it depends, right? Like I mean in any market, like most is gonna be bad and then ten per s what's that thing? Like ten percent is always that ratio, you know, it's like ten percent of the people are
Kyrill1:01:00Eighty twenty.
Dario1:01:01carrying the the other ninety, right? So type of thing. So yeah.
Kyler1:01:05That sounds right. I feel like I feel like I s for every really cool commercial I see, there's like twenty that I'm like, What? Like someone paid for
Dario1:01:14Yeah.
Kyler1:01:14that? And some of them are like big name brands. Toyota's like a huge sponsor of San Diego Sports.
Kyrill1:01:20Right.
Kyler1:01:21and they consistently put out like highly mediocre content. and every time our team pulls it up we're like, Man, someone's paying like a lot of money for this Someone as in Toyota in that case. And it's still like huh.
Dario1:01:37How much of that do you think though is that
Kyrill1:01:37Yeah, it's interesting,
Dario1:01:38the client is like interfering and not wanting to 'cause it's yeah.
Kyrill1:01:41yeah. That's like half the time too, right?
Kyler1:01:41True. True. Ha ha.
Dario1:01:48How many times have we had
Kyrill1:01:48Yeah, it
Dario1:01:49it where we had to like kinda like downgrade our quality because it needs to fit someone else's vision?
Kyrill1:01:55Yeah. And they're paying the bills, so you gotta do it.
Dario1:01:57They're paying the bills, yeah.
Kyrill1:01:59you know, you know, it's interesting, you know, your question though about like what's out in the market and like I also watch I w I watch a lot of sports and one of the biggest things I've seen is the amount of ads that go into that space, but sp specifically in the gambling ads, those things are everywhere now. So I see that constantly and I'm like I'm watching some of these and I'm like, how is this like like Is this even good? Like, you know, cause a lot of it just it's weird. A lot of the gambling content out there is just so weird and it's designed to hook people, obviously, right? But I've gotten such fatigue from that, and I feel like that's an entirely different market from like I like I feel like there's regular commercial corporate video production space here, and then there's like the gambling content space. It's like it's I've I've seen it's like two different spaces and You know, I'm actually curious to if we could find Dario a guest that works specifically in the gambling ad world because then like it'll be interesting to see what their stories are like too.
Kyler1:03:05like when a a brand new industry has like a financial boom, like tech and SaaS was huge like ten years ago and they were the ones making like the otherworldly type of stuff. Good, bad, indifferent, everything in between. We just like flooded the market. yeah. All the online gambling and stuff.
Dario1:03:22That's that's gotten me thinking now, like we should be targeting these gambling companies 'cause th they got the budgets. Right? Like they're the new tech companies.
Kyler1:03:30It ma it makes me not want to use their platform.
Kyrill1:03:33Yeah. The the crazy thing is a lot some of it is Yeah,
Kyler1:03:34I'm like, how are you making so much money?
Dario1:03:36Yeah.
Kyrill1:03:37exactly. Well, I mean they're be they're paying you with your money basically.
Kyler1:03:41Yeah.
Dario1:03:41Yeah.
Kyrill1:03:43But a lot of it is also AI. Like I've noticed some of like like I think like thirty, forty percent of them is all AI based now as well. I'm like, my yeah. Yep.
Dario1:03:50you're right. my god. Yeah, I've seen them on TikTok and I was like, wait, is this an AI ad they're doing? 'Cause it was pretty bad. I was like, this is strange. It's not there yet. Yeah, yeah. It it look it look y you know what, Kyler,
Kyrill1:03:56They're all AI. Yeah. They're not even trying. That's the thing. They know they don't have to try.
Dario1:04:04now that you mention it, I have seen low quality stuff and it was from the gambling once 'cause they were using AI.
Kyrill1:04:08There you go.
Dario1:04:09But like not even like properly produced AI content, just like
Kyrill1:04:13It's terrible.
Dario1:04:14like for the Facebook market. But I guess now now we know who they're targeting, right? It's probably like the older people.
Kyrill1:04:20Exactly. They're they're looking for the vulnerable people, the lonely people who wanna be doing that, which is it's not exactly a great space to be in, you know, because of that, but but it's everywhere now. It's it's crazy to see.
Kyler1:04:33Yeah. Yeah. How how do you guys identify like good fits for your clients? Earlier you said like we kinda do all styles of work. Do you feel like you have a need even to like filter are we the right fit? Like we wanna work with this style company, whether it's their industry, sometimes it's just relationships and you might not know that until you get into a project and you're like, we probably won't do again because Mark from X Company is like just kind of a jerk. But do you guys find yourself like filtering styles of company or industries you work with based on
Dario1:05:07Mm.
Kyler1:05:07fit?
Kyrill1:05:09Filter good people, you know, we start with that.
Dario1:05:09Nah. Yeah.
Kyrill1:05:11It's like are we working with good people? Like people who are pleasant to be around, pleasant to work with, you know, also have money, obviously. You know, th that's an important aspect of what we do. Like, does this company have a budget? And y exactly.
Dario1:05:22It's pay to play, right?
Kyrill1:05:25And usually if if the people you're working with are good are good people, then a lot of the time that's enough of a filter that everything else just kinda works its itself out. Like I I can't I wouldn't say that there's any Clients in the last like five years that I would say, like, I wish we never worked with them or anything like that. Because each
Kyler1:05:44That's awesome.
Kyrill1:05:44in each new industry or each new type of client that we've worked with always kind of like helps expand our our thinking a little bit. It helps us try new things. Like imagine if you just niche down into just doing food content and that's like the only stuff you do. Yeah, you'll become really good in it, right? But some but then you're kind of like stuck in that world, right? Whereas if you try
Dario1:06:05Some people like that.
Kyrill1:06:06Some people like that, yeah. Like I'm just saying in terms of us, like we like to work with different types of industries and clients because sometimes you come up with ideas for those industries or those types of projects that that work really well and then you learn from that and then you can bring it to the other work that you also do. So, you know, at at the end of the day, I I just I like working with great people. That's that's the biggest thing.
Dario1:06:30I've always I've always I I I For me I like the I like the the generalism that we do just cause we get to experience different things. It's almost like you get to like playtest different jobs you could have done. Do you know what I mean? 'Cause like
Kyrill1:06:45yeah.
Dario1:06:46'cause like how often are you gonna be at like the factory floor of a company that does garage doors and then the next day you're at like this private equity company and you just kinda like see how they work and you're like, ooh, I would have never made it in this industry. Good thing I I didn't go down that path. But at least I got to try it like try it out for a day and see how it was and I like that that aspect of it. It's like w we're in we're in we're we're pretty we're in a lucky space because how how many jobs are there where you get to like see all that stuff, right? It's usually if you're in finance you're in finance. You don't get to experience like what a mining company does, right? You're just there, right?
Kyler1:07:24Yeah. Yeah, the exposure is rad. I feel like we often come back from set like figuring out whatever their company's problem is. Like, you know, so and so in finance, like if they could just figure out this and we're like, we're experts, like we could solve this. Like they're just not even paying attention to the hole in the company. or this company in manufacturing, like
Dario1:07:38Ha ha ha
Kyler1:07:43their supply chain's really not that hard to figure out. I don't know why they're worried about all you have to do is do like XYZ and they'd fine. As if we like actually know what we're talking about. But I do find that
Dario1:07:50Yeah.
Kyrill1:07:50Ha ha ha.
Kyler1:07:53way more inspiration from non creative companies, which may be a hot take, I'm not sure. but I find that like similar companies that are further along than us, that like can definitely be like North Star aspirational type of of a other agencies are often doing something so similar to us, just better, which is super cool and it's like it's motivating. But it's really hard to kind of think outside the box or like bring something new. So I I find that we find get a lot more like whether it's process or even creative experiences that benefit us are more from other industries. Like we're all our whole team's reading a book right now called Unreasonable Hospitality that's all about the restaurant industry. And like there's no creative tips and tricks or insights at all. And yet like we're growing more from that than we do from reading something about a company really similar to ours. So I don't know I don't know what to make of that. Maybe it's because we work in such diverse spaces as well. And that like we can see the benefits and the downfalls of how they're operating. but I love it. Like pulling inspiration from non creative spaces is f from as far as running a business has been more beneficial for me.
Dario1:09:07There's probably more in common between a restaurant and a video production company though, because you guys are cooking up the ingredients, putting it all together, serving it to the customer.
Kyler1:09:17Okay.
Dario1:09:19There was actually a guest we had from Seattle a a year or two ago. He he came from restaurants and he was talking about how they're very similar in a way, 'cause it's like same thing, prepping the the food and all this stuff. It's like getting your shots, putting it all together.
Kyrill1:09:34And to your point, like if you look at other industries like see, you're you're also inadvertently looking at under other industries and seeing how you could learn new techniques or new just new ideas really, not techniques, like more so new ideas and approaches to how you can run your business with the main people you typically work with, right? if you're always looking at the same type of company at the same type of projects over and over and over again, yeah, you might get some technical improvements over time. But maybe the thinking doesn't change as easily or as often, right? Like sometimes you like I I I feel like we all have to figure out new ways to stimulate ideas, especially if you start doing the same thing over and over. Like every now and then you might get into like a space where like for like a few months you're doing the same type of work. It's like, you know, we gotta we gotta try something different. Like how do we how do we do that? Like do we look elsewhere, do we look here, do we look here? And yeah. And it it sounds like you're you're also kind of doing that as well.
Kyler1:10:31It's fun.
Dario1:10:31Making me it's making me think if I sh it's making me think I should probably bring on more diverse guests outside the video industry. See see what they contribute. The
Kyrill1:10:41Then it's no longer about the business of video.
Kyler1:10:41Well, I guess different it's different purposes.
Dario1:10:46business of business.
Kyrill1:10:48Business of businesses.
Kyler1:10:50It'd be interesting to bring on for like even within like Creatives Grab Coffee still kind of fits the niche, just like branding agency or a design firm or like getting to see like the people who are kind of adjacent to us. so working with similar clientele, probably moderately similar experiences and scopes, but delivering a different product. that'd be really interesting to me. Like I w I have no idea what that workflow
Kyrill1:11:13I thought about that.
Kyler1:11:15or process looks like.
Dario1:11:16Start a new podcast, Business or Business. Just call it Bob. Bob Podcast. Bob's Bob's podcast.
Kyler1:11:19Bob.
Dario1:11:23The Bob.
Kyrill1:11:25Neither of us are called Bob.
Kyler1:11:28Yeah.
Kyrill1:11:30One thing I'm also curious
Dario1:11:30Ugh, all right, listen.
Kyrill1:11:32about one thing I'm also curious about though, like with the with the whole minivan thing, you said you kinda lived out of it for a little while. Is that how you came up with the name for the business? Or like was there a a bigger story to that?
Kyler1:11:44Yeah, we I guess lived lived out of it as far as road tripping. we were in college and we're like, hey, let's go out to the west coast for spring break, like freshman or sophomore year. Like, sweet, let's like fly there, stay, go to the Grand Canyon, do all the things. Like, that's actually super expensive, so we can't afford to do that. And then it's like, Well, what if we drive? and it's like, cool, like that saves a lot of money. But gas is still expensive and like we still pay for housing and food, like that's still gonna add up and we couldn't like justify for all broke college students. and then we were like, Well what if we like get someone else to pay for it? And so we built a whole brand called Van Without a Plan at the time and we had like a blog and a vlog and stickers and shirts and got I think our first year we had sixteen corporate sponsors. all the way up to like North Face and Otterbox were like sending us gear and paying for gas and so it paid for like our whole trip essentially. And then we ran it back the next year and did like a similar thing. Already kinda had some of those relationships established and then a couple of years later, when it came to like formalizing the company, looked back on that experience as like the first I had been freelancing for a while. I lived in Guatemala as like a multimedia journalist and then also was doing like a lot of corporate video. through high school and college. but my first like cool, interesting project that had a lot of traction was this road trip in the minivan. because we were like four by fouring in a minivan with a six inch lift on it. Like we were out in the boonies and
Dario1:13:23Mm.
Kyrill1:13:24Ha ha.
Kyler1:13:25so it was super fun. Like everyone wanted to attach to it and it became really accessible and then over the years we really had modeled our posture toward a minivan, like a literal minivan. being like curious and approachable and purpose driven and ingenuity, like you can do so many things with it and fit so many different types of people. Like we're bringing our clients along on this road trip with us. everybody can fit in a van. It's like not some hot sexy sports car. It's like a practical functional vehicle. so yeah, at the time it was more of like a cool moniker that we could attach to, but it has really become like a posture for how our company is and what people can expect working with us.
Kyrill1:14:05I love that story. That's awesome. Sounded like a lot when when was the were these road trips happening? Like what years were they?
Kyler1:14:13would have been like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.
Dario1:14:19okay.
Kyrill1:14:19okay. Nice.
Kyler1:14:20like travel vlog was were were were big and Maddie Hipoya and
Kyrill1:14:23That was popular then, actually, yeah.
Kyler1:14:26yeah. A bunch of YouTubers, Sam Kolder, Maddie Hapoya, were like blowing up at that time. So we didn't
Dario1:14:34Is it still online?
Kyler1:14:35get that big, but the video definitely is we didn't ever have we didn't like have a YouTube channel. it was like Vimeo and a blog that we like p hosted everything within. But yeah, I think our first one was called Shake the Dust, like the video, and the next one was called Comeback Kids, round two. It's great it's great. I'm sure honestly I'm sure we used like illegal music and everything too.
Kyrill1:14:54Send them to us we want to see it.
Dario1:14:56Yeah, yeah.
Kyrill1:15:00You gotta send them to us. I'm I'm very curious to see
Kyler1:15:02Hello.
Kyrill1:15:02like the early days of Minivan.
Dario1:15:06And I forgot to ask this earlier, but when did you start the the company? What year was it?
Kyler1:15:12It was founded in twenty nineteen.
Dario1:15:14Twenty nine okay. I
Kyrill1:15:14Okay.
Dario1:15:15think you mentioned it. Okay, cool, cool. I just wanted the timeline.
Kyler1:15:17Yeah, I think we're year year seven.
Dario1:15:20Year seven, yeah, that's right. Nice. I I need my third espresso of the day, so I think it's probably a good
Kyrill1:15:27Ha ha ha.
Dario1:15:28place to cut I'm starting to feel zapped out a little bit. let's let's end it off here. so to our listeners, Kyler is from San Diego, so if you got shoots over there, reach out to him or questions about salaries and W twos and profit margins or minivans.
Kyrill1:15:45Or minivans.
Kyler1:15:46Please don't. No.
Dario1:15:50his website is minivanproductions.com. So s at the end. And are you active on social?
Kyler1:15:58I should be more active. but
Dario1:16:00Okay.
Kyler1:16:01I think my my atts are like at Kyler Beal. Easy to find. yeah, I started I
Dario1:16:06And you're co
Kyler1:16:07recently had a daughter and so I've started taking more photos and stuff. So you might not find more video content
Kyrill1:16:11Hey, congrats.
Kyler1:16:12but you can follow on the family family occasions.
Kyrill1:16:16Nice. I'm expecting my first in seven days. So Yeah.
Kyler1:16:20Let's go. How you feelin', dad?
Kyrill1:16:23I'm it's honestly it's any day now at this point, so it's just kind of like a waiting game.
Dario1:16:28So Kyrill Kyler told me something really interesting during the pre interview. He said that the day after his baby came, he went right back to work. So I just want you to listen to what other people are doing.
Kyler1:16:38Yeah.
Kyrill1:16:41I knew it was coming. I knew that was coming.
Dario1:16:45And his wife was calling him from the hospital saying, I need help. He's like, No, I have to help out at the company. So just a thought for you, okay? So September seventeenth, just remember that.
Kyrill1:16:54As soon as he started talking, I knew that was coming.
Kyler1:16:57I ca I can't let that information get out there like that. That's false.
Dario1:17:00Ha ha ha
Kyrill1:17:02He will show this episode to his wife up until like a minute like an hour and fifteen.
Kyler1:17:06Right, right, right. Yeah.
Dario1:17:11Anyways, listen, give him a follow on Instagram. He promises he'll post more often if you do. At Minivan Productions on Instagram. I don't know if you're doing TikTok too, but but yeah. All right.
Kyler1:17:24No, LinkedIn LinkedIn is probably the most popular of our channels.
Dario1:17:29Okay. Give
Kyrill1:17:29Nice.
Dario1:17:30a follow over there too. It's probably Kyler
Kyler1:17:30Yeah. Come on over.
Dario1:17:33Kyler Beal and and Minivan Productions. I think I'm follow yeah, I'm following you over there.
Kyler1:17:39That's good.
Dario1:17:40Alright, awesome. Guys, I think that's a good
Kyrill1:17:42Thanks, Kyler.
Dario1:17:43spot to end this.
Kyler1:17:45Awesome. Thank you all. This is fun.
Kyrill1:17:46Right. I appreciate you joining.
Dario1:17:48Thanks for coming on.
